Attention seeking/jealousy
Sorry, this is going to be long. Frank has now been with us since early June and has always displayed this behaviour but I thought it would settle down as Frank got older and became more settled with us, but if anything it is getting worse. The kids love Frank and he is never agressive with the, just jealous. When me and Frank are home alone you could not ask for a more laid back dog. He is always my myside, (normally asleep) but never demands any attention. As soon as there are two or more people in he is manic and never leaves you alone. 1, we cannot play a board game as a family sitting on the floor because Frank gets on the board and nicks the pieces. 2, If i am reading with one of the chiledren, or the other night my husband and I were looking at a book together, he repeatedly pushes the book out of the way and squeezes himself in. 3, If we are cuddling or playing with the children he will get in between us and push the children out of the way. 4, On fri i was looking after my neighbours 7 month old baby. As the baby was getting attention Frank would want to be where ever the baby was and repeatedly knocked him over. Pushing him away and telling him no, makes no difference as he becomes more insistant. Time outs don't work as if you shut him out of a room he opens the door and comes back, he jumps the baby gate if we use that and if we shut him in the garden he rips the fence apart to escape. No matter how much time we spend with him, as soon as the focus is off of him, he becomes demanding again. Giving him food treats and toys to occupy him make no difference as he just ignores them. I am really getting concerned, espacially with the new baby coming and it is not fair on the children either as they never get to spend any one to one time with us without Frank ruining it. Frank will be 3 in April, we had him neutered in August and we are his fourth home.

Re: Attention seeking/jealousy
Sorry, this is going to be long. not as long as my answer, eek!! :lol: :lol: :lol: Obviously I haven't seen frankie and a personal consult would be best in a situation like this. but I think this might be a clue we are his fourth home He sounds like he may be a rather insecure boy. He is also doing what all dogs (and people) do - and that repeating behaviours that work for him ie stuff that brings a good result. Pushing him away and telling him no, makes no difference as he becomes more insistant. Time outs don't work as if you shut him out of a room he opens the door and comes back, he jumps the baby gate if we use that what's been happening by the sound of it is that he's a BIG attention seeker - and he's succeeding in getting attention with the stuff he's doing. Even looking at him and pushing him away maybe saying No is still attention: you are looking at him, touching him and speaking to him. In in his book, any attention - even negative attention - is better than none. what's also happening is that the punishment isn't working, so it is not a punishment at all - in fact he's rewarding himself by getting out of it. A time-out isn';t a time-out if he can open the door by himself and come back in. And a barrier such as a baby gate is no good if he can jump it (you can get higher dog gates from Argos) if we shut him in the garden he rips the fence apart to escape. When he's in the garden and he physically can't get back in, it sounds to me - and I stress of course that I haven't seen him - that he's a bit panicky...again pointing to an insecure dog who has had a lot of big unheavals in his life. So first of all I would try a few general points. when you are alone with him, try to wean him off sticking to you like glue and help him cope better in his own company. You can do this by repeatedly leaving the room for a moment and shutting the door, and then going back - without saying a word. Gradually build up your coming and going for longer periods so he realises that it's completely normal for you to leave the room and then come back. it would make life a lot easier if he can gradually learn that it's ok to be in the house with people in another room - and as he relaxes he will be able to eat tasty chews and Kongs. If he won't eat them at the moment, it may be because he's too stressed at not being able to follow you. If, like many dogs, he does seek attention by nudging, pawing, whining, pushing in etc ignore all the bad stuff and instead ask him to 'sit' and then reward him by looking at him and touching him. this should teach him that attention is available when you ask politely eg sit. Do not put your hands on him if he's doing anything undesirable - if he starts, put your hands straight behind your back until he stops again. I would also set aside 5-10 mins here and there for little training sessions so he does get your full attention at times and he knows these sessions are coming. Re the list of annoying things.... I would start going for the positive rather than the negative and rewarding what you DO like so he gets a reward for doing those things and wants to repeat them. set him up to succeed Look at all those situations and ask yourself 'what would I like him to do?' then train him to do it and make it physically impossible for him to get it wrong and reward himself for doing the 'wrong' thing. 1, we cannot play a board game as a family sitting on the floor because Frank gets on the board and nicks the pieces. I think very many dogs would do this :lol: Look at it from his point of view - everyone's on the floor doing something and they're all ignoring him. what happens if he leaps in the middle and grabs a piece? he's the centre of attention. even better if it turns into a chase game to get the piece back! presumably, you'd like him to lie down nicely. you could try putting down a little mat when no-one's around and and then getting him to lie on it and praising and giving him food treats repeatedly. start off very close to him and feed treats from ground level so he doesn't get up. the aim is to teach him that it's rewarding to lie on the mat - people come and give you food. If he's just too bouncy, pop him on a lead and put your foot on it so he can't get up, or tether him, - then praise and reward the lying down. this will take a bit of practice and you will need to very gradually build up the level of exciting things going on around him at the time from zero right down to a board game going on. It may help to give him a chew or a stuffed Kong - if they are tasty enough and he starts to relax he should start to eat them You could also teach a 'leave', by putting the board on the ground and (have him on lead if necessary) and praise and reward for not touching it. These exercises would be the sorts of things taught at a good training class, if that's any help - and he'd learn to focus on you and perform them with other stuff going on around him. 2, If i am reading with one of the chiledren, or the other night my husband and I were looking at a book together, he repeatedly pushes the book out of the way and squeezes himself in. train him to do something else , before you start reading the book eg lie down in return for food treats and praise. tether him to a heavy item of furniture if necessary and start off making it very very easy - repeated praise and treats for staying still on one spot. 3, If we are cuddling or playing with the children he will get in between us and push the children out of the way. you could try a range of things and find something that works - teaching the down stay as above and giving him a chew, teaching him to sit and wait for his own cuddle. here a negative punishment might work - if he pushes in, give your time-out warning and if he keeps on...all of you silently get up and leave the room so he's on his own for a minute or so. (If he can open the doors, then it isn't a punishment - one possibility is to put the door handles upside down so he can't jump on them, or you may have a room you can all go in that he can't get into.) If you are punishing with a time-out, you do need to teach the dog an alternative behaviour that is OK eg sit/wait so he learns to choose the one that will get him a good result 4, On fri i was looking after my neighbours 7 month old baby. As the baby was getting attention Frank would want to be where ever the baby was and repeatedly knocked him over. I think having him on a lead and praising and rewarding all calm behaviour sounds like a good bet here - or just him learning to relax in another room for an hour or so with a Kong (what I referred to earlier about teaching absences). Maybe he would benefit from meeting more small children in controlled circumstances. It may be that you would benefit from a behaviour counsellor coming to see you in person and showing you how to do exercises etc before the baby comes - but do beware, not all are good - even some recommended by vets. if you decide to see someone and you tell me the area in which you live, I'll try to get you a personal recommendation. good luck :lol:

Thanks Elaine for your quick and thorough response. We had pretty much worked out that all this has probably come about from him being rehomed so many times and that has made him insecure. I am considering asking for a visit from the trainer that works with the rescue we got him from. For a while now we have been trying the if you push, paw, whine you get ignored but we tell him to sit and if he does he then gets attention. The trouble is that once he has the attention he is up and bouncy again. I also think it is difficult because getting the children to follow through, with the not talking touching running after him when he takes stuff, is easier said then done. I am definately going to start putting into practise some of your other ideas. As for being on his own, he is brilliant overnight. He goes to his bed and we don't hear from him until the morning. He is not allowed upstairs, we have a gate up on the bottom step to make it higher. However, if we go upstairs during the day he sits at the bottom of the stairs whimpering. There have been a few times when I have gotten to the point that I think maybe we are not the best home for him, then I decide to persevere because he can be so lovely and i dont want to add to the problems of his insecurity. I sometimes think that maybe he would be better in a home with an older dog so that he has a calming influence and a constant companion, or in a home with an older couple that have the time to devote to him so that he does not need to fight for attention :(

You have all but described our Willow here! Is it because they is yellow! Sorry - bad joke! Willow had extreme separation anxiety and I am surprised she didn't whine when we were all out but the neighbours never reported any problems. She pinched everything - anything to get a reaction. I can't say this has stopped completely but it's only the odd thing that you happen to leave or drop - before it was candles, books, magazines - anything she could get her chops on and then proceed to destroy it. Please bear with Frankie - your hard work will be rewarded. - it does get better. We've had Willow 2 years in March and as much as you move on, rescues never forget. Willow wouldn't go in the garden by herself - ever! We seemed to be 'encouraging' her neediness. If she followed us, we chatted to her and touched her so she was always getting attention. I had to learn to ignore her - hard as it was - but she needed to be weaned off that feeling that she must be with us. She would whine by 4 or 5 am every morning - as soon as she'd had enough of being on her own then it was time for us to get up! Strange as it is, just putting a blanket over her helped her to sleep to 7 - just something simple to make her feel secure. So as it goes, Willow is ignored when she is pestering. She eventually gives up, goes and lays down and it is then I go and praise her. I want her to tie the two together, everytime I go and lay down, I really get a lovely cuddle! She is still very attached - especically to my hubbie - and will whine a bit when he leaves - doesn't give a stuff about me any more! I am in and out all day but hubbie is gone for long periods of time. I don't think this will ever change but I just try not to encourage her worrying. It really is so hard because they just look at you with their big adoring eyes!

just a short post to say thanks again. I have been in bed all day with the flu. luckily my hubby has been home because of a derailed train. When Frank takes thing we are very lucky in that he never destroys them, just waits for you to take it out of his mouth. He does also love the company of other dogs. When he escapes the garden it is usually just next door to play with their springer spaniel Toby who he adores. They wil happily play chase for hours, but he only ever attempts to get to him if he can't get back indoors. A couple more points i thought of. When we first got Frank he was underweight, not anymore. When he first arrived he never touched anything that was not given to him, including food, but after a couple of months that changed and he will now nick any food left anywhere, I have to clean the plates immediately after dinner and i cannot leave anything out on the side to defrost. When we got Frank we bought him a nice big kennel for in the garden, I thought if we were going out and it was a nice day he would prefer to stay in the garden then indoors, WRONG! The only time hee has ever been in the kennel is if one of the children gets in first.

Just a quick update. Booby-traps don't bother frank as he has smashed plates and the noise does not bother him, I have also tried putting plastic cups of water on plates so he gets it spilled over him but that does not bother him either. His kennel is the old fashioned type with an open front. Over the last couple of weeks he has developed a new trick. Everytime he is left alone he completely empties the bin, I mean pulls the black sack out and everything.He does it the second he is laft as it only takes me 15mins to take the kids to school and get back and he has done it. On sunday the trainer that works with the rescue we got him from is coming to see us.

Oh dear, it does sound like an anxiety issue. Dogs with sep anxiety do tend to 'peak' very soon after they are left alone - often because their anxiety has risen rapidly as they realise you are getting ready to go out. One thing that can be very helpful is to set up a video camera and film what he does before and after you leave him. Hope the trainer will be able to help you and Frank :D

I agree with Elaine - we did this for Willow. Thankfully we found she settled after 10 minutes of whinning - we had lots of footage of a sleeping pair of labs but it was worth it just to put our minds at rest! :wink:

As you feared Elaine, the trainer told us that Frank has decided that he is the boss and is trying to control and take possession of everyone and everything. His basic advice was to be strict, consistant and that we have an aweful lot of work ahead if we feel we have the time to do it.

He didn't mention anything about rewards. His solution to the bin was a) empty it every time he is to be left alone, b)put something nasty round the top of the bin, ie, chilli paste. His other two suggestions were to get a cage for time outs and to put him in when he is to be left or even more extreme a kennel with a run for the garden for him during the day and only have him in doors of an evening when we have the time to actually spend time with him and then to sleep indoors over night. I personally think either option involving shutting him away will drive him nuts. when he was neutered and i went to pick him up as soon as he heard my voice he went crazy and broke out of the cage. Once the kids are in bed hubby and I concentrate on completely ignoring pushing , pawing wimpering and only respond with "ah" without eye contact and touching then once he gives up and lays down one of us gets on the floor with him and gives him a big fuss. He is catching on as at first it took 20 mins but he is now down to about 10 mins

jealousy
Dear Lucy I have read your posts with great interest. I am totally unqualified to give you any advice but just wanted to give a bit of support. We have had Freddy since early December and it is only now that it has really dawned on me what a humungous responsibility a rescue dog is. My main concern is that he doesn't rip the arm off a small child, as long as he just sticks to mine we are fine! We have the bin issue too. I have tried different places to keep the bin. it now lives under the stairs along with the bread bin. we are on the second bread bin, an attractive tin one with a lid, as Fred could open and empty the roll top one in a flash. I think the trick with the bin is don't put anything in it, then it can't be emptied and the contents distributed around the house. Any food that we need to leave out we put on the cooker hood. Fred has still managed to snaffle a packet of sausages and six hot cross bun's today. His best achievement was three selection boxes in one go, I am not sure that the children will ever entirely forgive him. I hope that things get easier for you so that you can concentrate on the new baby when it arrives. After three children and a rescue dog I have come to the conclusion that babies are easier. Andreax

Another update. We tried putting hot chilli powder in the bin when we went out. It worked for a couple of days then we just had a dog with a very upset tummy because he decided it wasn't enough to stop him going through the bin :twisted: Now when we go out the bin gets shut in a room Frank does not have access to. I was determined that I would not move it and that Frank should learn to leave it but with an increasing bump and sore back it is easier to move the bin then clear up every time I come home. Something interesting we have discovered is that he only does it when I am the one to leave him, if my husband leaves him he does not touch it :?: I decided that with the baby coming it would be helpful to have a few more commands learnt/taught. The first being leave :D We have had huge success. Last week someone had scattered a packet of coockies over the grass at the park and i managed to walk Frank literally over the top of them without him picking one up :D No easy task for a stomach led lab. The other is wait, stay just did not work :?: I decided that I needed a way to get him to sit on the doorstep and wait to be let in after a walk without him taking off as getting in with a pram and a dog will be a bit tricky. I can now tell him to sit then wait, take his lead off then unlock the door, walk in, then turn round and tell him to come in :D